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audifan
USA
73 Posts |
 Posted - 05/19/2010 : 12:46:36
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IMO,Without their name,exclusivity,and especially the QUALITY,the extra care in assembly and finish,there is not that much difference between BBR and a Spark or Minichamps diecast.If they lose the quality,and then pump out 20 versions of the same car with just changes in color,or presentation,as in the previous posts, why bother.......
The diecasts have made giant leaps in quality,and selection in the last few years,and along with the other models coming from China,possibly the only things going for an established maker like BBR is their name,and the supposed extra care lavished on each piece,and the lower numbers that make collecting fun.lower numbers produced also makes a collection hold its value.
All the models mentioned are "handbuilt",some to a higher degree than others,and even Spark,and Bizarre,Redline etc,are sometimes produced in smaller numbers than BBR.
Technomodel for example,has,in their exclusive series,kept the color variations to total the normal maximum of 200 pieces,the way it it once was for most handbuilt factory models,using their Chinese built models for various different versions of the same car,like the "White Elephant".They have been keeping most variations to 60,or 70 models each.......
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christian
Austria
443 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 12:50:41
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I wonder what are you going to buy when BBR is off ????
newer cars are never a problem but what about vintage ? |
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250GTE
Netherlands
295 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 13:14:22
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Good point Christian. We had Ilario to cover the vintage part and even the small niches in there, but sadly Ferrari took away his license to built Ferrari's. With the new Chrome series Ilario is making exquisite non-Ferrari vintage cars with beautiful presentation. Imagine if he was still doing Ferrari's.
However, we can complain about BBR, and much if it is true. I also have had my fair share of BBR's sent away for repair or even full restauration. I also agree with Hans and others that BBR's habit of pumping out new models in every variation imagineable, is a little off putting for those of us in search of something special and exclusive. And if we weren't looking for that, we probably weren't collecting high valued handbuilt modelcars either.
But on the other hand, I must admit BBR has made a huge impact on me even becoming a collector. Almost half of my collection is BBR and they'll have always my support. I just maintain the right to stay critical. |
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Ferrari2006
Germany
352 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 13:27:01
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i ask myself, what are thinking the "Dealer´s whit this Problem? |
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zuoscrib
Switzerland
24 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 14:18:20
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Audifan has right, the diecasts are much more better, than 10 years ago. But for me a diecast can never give the feeling of a handmade, although they are also "handmade" in China. Correction: handbuilt.
In this case China is not even a problem, they have a beautiful history with a lot of craftmanship all over the decades. I was never been there, but it is the top country on my "where to go" chart.
The problem is, that the workers there do not know, what they build. They get money for their job in a country, where the laborcosts are 1/10th of Italy, or even less. They do not understand, what theirs job, or "product" means for a collector. Their needs are much lower and completly others, as ours. They cannot think with our head. They see an instruction, which was translated to their language (how correct it is translated?), they are reading this and making models, but do not take care for things, which are important for a collector. Because they are no collectors.
And today China has (unfortunately) a bad reputation, all the cheap clothes, electronics, or even fake products come from there and it is really hard to realise, that a handbuilt is also made in China. How can it reflect a higher quality? And it does not, as we now notice.
I do not understand the Italian companies. Italy is the best example for the differences. The laborcost on the north is three times higher, then in the south. If I want to expand, then there is the opportunity in the same country. I can make a factory in south, I will have 1/3 less personal costs, but the product is still italian. First should be uncritical parts produced there, the painting and assembly will stay in north. Then painters will be hired, after a while the assembly can be done there as well, etc. I save 2/3rd of the labor cost, but the product ist still italian craftmanship, made in Italy. I give jobs for other italians and pay taxes also for Italy. And the most important thing, that the needs of the workers are on nearly the same level, as ours.
I think we (collectors) are the market and if the handmade companies ruin the market, they will realise theirs mistake. If Fred sends the California back to his dealer, and others do it with other dealers as well, the dealers will realise it sooner or later. In Switzerland the customer needs and rights are on very high standard. In Zürich there is the Franz Carl Weber toyshop on the Bahnhofstrasse (such like the Rodeo Drive in Los Angeles). There are several toys on three floors, but they have a corner for modelcars as well. From diecasts to handmade. There are Minichamps and One Man Factory next to each other, there are kits from Revell, but Studio 27 and Model Factory Hiros from Japan also. They have had so many reclamations for BBRs, that they do not sell BBRs anymore. I bought there some of my looksmarts as well, they were all ok, because the seller told me, that looksmarts were also critized, therefore they checked all the models before selling them. And probably they won't order it anymore, because from 10 pcs. 2 or 3 have some visible problems and the communication, warranty, etc. are not really regulated with the factory. I could also send back to MR at least 40 models from my collection with significant failures :( |
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MING43
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 14:34:19
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| i agree with Han. as a "entry level collector", I know I did pay higher price for some particular model that i really like in the earlier stage of collecting hand builds. I have no regret because sometimes price is not an issue, especially for those of us in this hobby. but then when I realized that BBR start to have many re-release (for example, enzo, F430 etc...) and quality issue (after they move the production line to China), I started to slow down my collection purchase and always wait for good deals for BBR new release because I know the price is going to drop with so many quantity flowing in the market.You will be so "amazed" by searching "1/43 BBR" on ebay and you will find over 700 listings, then you will realized that it is like "diecast" listings..just the prices are higher..I am not sure BBR is still doing very good business on hand builds or they started to realize the down turn of the profit making, if it is the 2nd case, either BBR will have the "power" to change the collector's collecting habit to continue their business in the future or they will go into an end. |
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moriaan
Netherlands
510 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 14:37:17
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I don't think BBR will be off!
The company is changing their philosophy.
The cheaper price justifies the new releases, but I have to agree with Marnix (GTE), a lot of collectors started because of the classic BBR's. Older BBR's will probably go the same way as AMR's.
The demand for those will grow!
Personally, I changed my direction, and am mainly collecting older releases, the ones that got me collecting in the first place.
I can understand the way they run their business, but there is a big danger they forget, they turn away from their corebusiness and go from handbuilts to "exclusive-massproduction". The one thing the collectors don't like.... which might lead to losing their core-clients.
Maybe they changed their profductrange intentionally, because the 1:18 diecasts will probably be more profitable than 1:43 handbuilts..
Hans |
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zuoscrib
Switzerland
24 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 14:40:58
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| Yes, BBR or MR won't go down. They will both realise the needs and introduce a new line "100% handmade in Italy" :))) |
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Kelvin
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 15:54:08
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I have no problem paying more for BBR Made in Italy than paying less for BBR Made in China. Based on my observation the new Concept line doesn't sell very well probably because of the quality. To me a model is all about quality, I don't really care if it is limited release or not.
I am hoping Make Up's quality would not fall like how the BBR falls nowaday. |
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audifan
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 16:43:53
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"Yes, BBR or MR won't go down. They will both realise the needs and introduce a new line "100% handmade in Italy" :)))"
This is what Technomodel has done-100% handmade in Italy for their latest,the "Exclusive" series,but notice the prices for models in this series are now about $100.00 more than their models were in the past.
As long as the quality is there,I will have no problem paying the price for models that I want.
The last models I purchased from MR were 2 of the limited Ferrari anniversary series.I was not thrilled with either one.I came to the conclusion that these models were probably assembled by someone else,not the normal MR factory builders.The other,older MR models in my collection are excellent.
I only own a few BBR models.There are only a few I have seen that I would want to buy-older models,since I do not collect modern street Ferrari's,or Formula 1 cars.
Re:"The problem is, that the workers there do not know, what they build."
It really does not matter,what matters to them is if they do the job to the standards their employer desires.CMC models are made in China,and I have never seen higher quality in all aspects on any other mass produced model.These are the same type of worker that produce Make Up,Gasoline,Redline,Exoto,and all the other models and diecasts.The difference is that the company sets the standards,and trains the worker to meet the standards.It is the same for workers in Italy,I'm sure.
The quality standards for most companies are based on the price the item will sell for-higher for more expensive products,lower for cheaper items.
BTW,the prices for a recent BBR,or a exclusive series Technomodel are in the same range as most of the CMC models,about $250 to a little over $340.00.....Really-Which has more actual skill and handwork involved in the completed item? |
Edited by - audifan on 05/19/2010 16:50:46 |
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the.x.man
New Zealand
877 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 17:17:42
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quote:
Originally posted by zuoscrib
The Makeup Lambos are looking really nice. I do not have any, but Mike has some in his shop. Any experience with them?
I have seven Eidolon Countachs so far and I love them! They are easily the most accurate 1/43 Countach built to date (although I have noticed a couple of very minor details on them that I wish were better). They leave the MR Collection Countachs for dead - and I still have a soft spot for my MR's... Unfortunately, I no longer have the pictures, but I had a Garage43 built MR Countach photographed beside an Eidolon one to show the differences. Some of those differences were amazing, the body shape most all.
I very highly recommend Make Up's Countach models! I just wish I had the money and the space to have one of each they produced and I cannot wait for their "Cannonball Run" version :o)
Also very impatient for their promised Miuras.
I often used to wonder what a 1/43 Countach would be like from BBR.
________________________________________________________
There is only one substitute for cubic inches... more cubic inches! |
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MING43
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2010 : 17:19:18
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| Speaking of BBR vs Make up, I agree that MU's quality is better than BBR in general because of the QC of the production.. or we can say its "European" vs. "Asian" style. BBR and MR model have the "bold" & "wild" feel while MU gives you "slim" and very "proportional" model. But I don't know why I would choose BBR over MU maybe it’s because BBR gives me the "art" feel of the model. Even make up is better in detail and they are supper clean build, but I don't have the same kind of feel as BBR's..or you can say the "soul" in it. |
Edited by - MING43 on 05/19/2010 17:21:38 |
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zuoscrib
Switzerland
24 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2010 : 03:29:21
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Hello Jono,
Thanks for the info about MU Countachs. I think, I will buy some in the near future.
Zou |
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IchoTolot
France
37 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2010 : 04:15:38
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I agree 100% with Kelvin.
For the.x.man :
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David T.
Italy
24 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2010 : 08:36:09
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quote:
Originally posted by zuoscrib
I do not understand the Italian companies. Italy is the best example for the differences. The laborcost on the north is three times higher, then in the south. If I want to expand, then there is the opportunity in the same country. I can make a factory in south, I will have 1/3 less personal costs, but the product is still italian. First should be uncritical parts produced there, the painting and assembly will stay in north. Then painters will be hired, after a while the assembly can be done there as well, etc. I save 2/3rd of the labor cost, but the product ist still italian craftmanship, made in Italy.
This is not exact, at least to this extent. Add that Italian beaureaucracy makes it preferable to move to China than to start a production in, say, Southern Italy, when you have to face many other problems (bad organization, corruption, poor communication etc.). |
Edited by - David T. on 05/20/2010 08:37:48 |
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BBR Quality...
