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ioannis
Greece
494 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2010 : 08:11:06
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What kind of models are the ATC ones?
I never heard of them.
What kind kis they use?
Any info will be valuable.
Thanks, John |
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ioannis
Greece
494 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2010 : 08:12:37
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| Sorry, I mean kits not kis |
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Models123
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2010 : 16:37:00
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John,
I used to deal directly with ATC. The models are only a side business from their main business.
The models offered are limited edition Rolls Royce and Bentley models. Various cars and colors. They only make hand builts, no kits at all, or as far as I know. Overall quality is pretty good to great depending on the model though build quality is inconsistent. They are resin with a good amount of photo etch and other detail parts. They generally come mounted in an acrylic display case inside an elaborate presentation box along with a rather cheap little paper certificate. Also, many of their models feature opening doors, which are usually fairly well to very well fitted. Personally, I don't care if the doors open or not, I just want the best model I can get.
A lot of their models appear on eBay. They represent very good to excellent value which depends on the price and the model selected! I'm not sure if they really stick to the limits advertised on their editions or not, but if they do, then these are very limited edition pieces.
Hope this helps.
Marshall |
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ioannis
Greece
494 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 00:34:23
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Thanks Marshall.
I saw a Rolls Royce on ebay and I didn't know.
It was sold about $57 yesterday.
John |
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the.x.man
New Zealand
877 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 01:15:10
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"A Top Collection"
I had to just check back through some old e-mail - I thought it was ATC who contacted me last year via my website, telling me about themselves, but it was not (it was another company in China called TRL Models).
ATC did all three colour variations of the Jonckheere Phantom I (white, gold and black), and I would dearly like to know if they mastered their own or used Vroom kits.
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There is only one substitute for cubic inches... more cubic inches! |
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IchoTolot
France
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 02:54:09
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The ATC Henri & Joseph Jonckheere Phantom I is a rip-off of the Vroom kit. Worse, the Chinese used the wrong kit, the Pebble Beach one (the car has been amputated from its bumpers by the Petersen's...).
From what I know, ATC doesn't have any license to make RR models.
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the.x.man
New Zealand
877 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 03:30:10
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Indeed, if that is the case, they used the incorrect Vroom kit for the white and gold versions. In fact, I think Vroom only produced the gold one as a factory built, not a kit, so it possibly never occured to them that they would need to scratch-build the two different types of bumper bars the pre-Petersen restoration versions had.
And I also do not for a moment imagine they have approval from Rolls Royce...
I think I will happily stick with my Garage43 version of Vroom's kit :o)
Please excuse the incorrect plaque - it has since been replaced by one bearing the correct details (Vroom had the label wrong on their kit!).
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There is only one substitute for cubic inches... more cubic inches! |
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ioannis
Greece
494 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 05:34:55
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My humble opinion.
Laurent's Jonckheere Phantom I is much better |
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IchoTolot
France
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 15:10:47
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Laurent's work is awesome.
Here are the two versions of the Vroom Phantom I Jonckheere. Both built by Michel Ottenwaelder (Vroom). Phantom I (Hooper) ex-Rajah of Nampara. Could have been given as a gift after the rebody to Edward 8 (yes... I know...) by the Rajah - circa 1935-37. Car was seen on the French Riviera and probably sent by boat to the Bahamas (with Edward and Wallis Simpson when they were kicked off Europe). Then again, the car was sent to Florida and lost. Found many years after by an American enthusiast in a... trash dump.
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Models123
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 16:28:43
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Laurent's work is truly superb. All I commented on was price, who ATC are and value for the money. At their overall cheap prices they are a very good value, and as with most items, you get what you pay for. There is no question that I would take a Vroom built by Laurent over the ATC, but only if I really wanted the absolute best and was willing to pay for it.
Vroom did offer kits of this model as well as factory builts.
The ATC piece is most likely a rip-off of the Vroom piece; and is certainly not Licensed by Rolls Royce. Nothing new their with China. I don't think the Vroom piece was Licensed either.
I've spoken with Leslie Kendall about this car, and also have a history that he researched and wrote. He is the curator at the Petersen Museum. The original color of the car is not certain, it is not really known. There are a couple of possibilities. There is no proof that this car was ever owned by any member of the British Royal family. It is highly doubtful, there is only unsubstantiated rumor. There is also some question and doubt as to whether or not the car was originally built with any sort of bumpers. Given the time period and type of design and in comparison to other specialty coach builders of the day, it is very unlikely that the car was originally built with such heavy handed poorly designed bumpers, especially with those added on rubber pieces which no one was using during that time period. So, the Petersen Museum was most likely correct to remove them from the car.
Marshall |
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the.x.man
New Zealand
877 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 18:14:41
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Oh, there is no doubt that a lot of models coming out of China offer exceptional value for money - and I do not see ATC being any different in that respect. Personally, I find myself torn when it comes to Chinese models, particularly from some of these lesser known outfits like ATC or TRL; on the one hand, they are producing some quite good quality models for relatively small prices, but then on the other hand, you sometimes have to be prepared to turn a blind eye to questionable licensing (and occasionally, outright piracy), as well as the stigma attached to any product coming out of China... And these days, I feel a lot of those issues are little unfair, as a lot of stuff from over there is just fantastic - Make Up Co's Eidolon range, for example; all very high quality, all legitimate and all exceptionally well priced. LookSmart are also pretty good when it comes to value for money. Given the right opportunities, there is no reason why the likes of ATC could not step into that bracket as well.
I could not imagine Vroom having official licensing from RR either, but then neither did Jonckheere back in 1935... In fact, I believe RR were extremely displeased with it! The one and only time 'wild' looking coachwork was ever officially approved by RR, was Lady Penelope's FAB1 from "Thunderbirds". That approval was unable to be renewed for the movie in '04 (hence the pink Ford Thunderbird instead). The Jonckheere and FAB1 were also the only two RRs to ever have a sloping radiator grille.
I am glad the Petersen Museum restored the Jonckheere without the bumpers - I do not care if they were 'supposed' to be on the car or not, it looks perfect without them :o)
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There is only one substitute for cubic inches... more cubic inches! |
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IchoTolot
France
37 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2010 : 00:01:22
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quote:
[i]I've spoken with Leslie Kendall about this car, and also have a history that he researched and wrote. He is the curator at the Petersen Museum. The original color of the car is not certain, it is not really known. There are a couple of possibilities. There is no proof that this car was ever owned by any member of the British Royal family. It is highly doubtful, there is only unsubstantiated rumor. There is also some question and doubt as to whether or not the car was originally built with any sort of bumpers. Given the time period and type of design and in comparison to other specialty coach builders of the day, it is very unlikely that the car was originally built with such heavy handed poorly designed bumpers, especially with those added on rubber pieces which no one was using during that time period. So, the Petersen Museum was most likely correct to remove them from the car.
Marshall
I totally disagree. Pictures exists from the French Riviera era that shows that the car left the Beveren-Roeselaere Manufacture with the famous Art-Deco bumpers. By the way, Henri and Joseph did the same design of bumpers on a Minerva 120v in 1927. You'll notice on my picture the flag holders used for the SAS cars. Car was obviously painted with a metallic paint from the beginning. Could have been silver, blue or even, that's a possibility, gold. Given the taste od the Indians at this time, I wouldn't be surprised.
The Petersen's got it wrong even with the color. This car has never ever been painted black. They came at Pebble with what they thought would be a best of show and ended with a "pimp my ride" car. Sad.
On the second pic, dated 1940. The lady in front of the car is the now, since 1937, Duchess of Windsor, Wallis Simpson.
1935 - Nice :
1940 :
quote:
I could not imagine Vroom having official licensing from RR either, but then neither did Jonckheere back in 1935...
Legally, you don't need a License when you make 15 built models/year. That's another story if you produce hundreds of them.
RR didn't have a word on the coachbuilders work. Figoni & Falaschi, Franay for example, made outstanding RR and Bentley coaches. They were not authorized coachbuilders like Hooper but they made interesting cars like the famous 1947 Paris Auto Show black Mark VI Bentley with red Frog leather interior.
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ioannis
Greece
494 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2010 : 05:31:49
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Thanks guys!!!
I only asked some informations on the ATC models.
This thread is turned to be a encyclopedia.
Keep going, I think that everybody likes it.
John |
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Models123
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2010 : 07:04:33
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Hello Icho Tolot,
Good grief...... Well, okay, it does appear to have originally had those garish bumpers. From purely a standpoint of aesthetics, the car looks better without the bumpers. I happen to be a big fan of most Art-Deco design, but not all, and some of it is truly tasteless. Those bumpers look out of place and spoil the flow of the body design. Many people feel the car looks better without the bumpers, though I do understand your very good and valid point about the originality and why you feel they should have left them on. I can't say you're wrong. In this instance it simply comes down to personal taste.
Moving on from there you can't really say or argue the color choice of the Petersen Museum. It's not fair to say that "The Petersen's got it wrong even with the color." They simply felt that the car looked best in black. Many automobiles world over have won numerous concours even when not painted in their original color(s), so that is a mute point. Licensing is not an issue applied to the old time coach builders such as Figoni & Falaschi, Saoutchik, Chapron, Bertone, Frua, Erdmann & Rossi, Franay and countless others - that is a non issue. Licensing was only mentioned by someone else on this Forum with specific regard to model cars, not the real cars. Also, as convincing as it may look, posing with a car for a photo does not prove the rumored ownership.
As a model maker and manufacturer, I wish I could agree with you regarding the legalities of licensing. The laws vary greatly from country to country. I wish it was as simple as you mentioned with regard to making 15 built models per year. Maybe that is so in France, but that law does not exist or apply in the USA and does not exist or apply in many other countries either. I would love to have solid legal paperwork that proves that I could make up to 15 models per year of any car without any worries, so I could waive it in front of various car companies. Licensing and the legalities of it are a very complex 'minefield' and one much too involved to write about here.
Please also note that I do not mean any disrespect to you or to the good and helpful information you have posted, but I simply show and point out the other side and some other correct information as well.
Marshall |
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the.x.man
New Zealand
877 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2010 : 03:44:17
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That first picture that you posted is one I had not seen before, IchoTolot. It not only shows the original bumpers (interesting, I always thought the three rubber 'overriders' were a later addition), but also a lot of the other details the Petersen Museum omitted when they restored it. Funny, while I love their super-clean result, I still feel it is sad that a lot of those details never made it back onto the car; things such as the 'parking aerials' and marker lights on the front guards, the trio of driving lights and, best of all, the coach lamps just behind the doors.
However, original or not - and the purists may howl - but those bumpers were just awful, particularly when you see the elegant 'blade' bumpers that Figoni et Falaschi fitted to their Talbot-Lago T150's.
This is all very bad for me, you know - now I am starting to think about getting another kit and sending it off to poor Laurent for a pre-Petersen version... perhaps even with the roof slid back and the boot open :o)
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There is only one substitute for cubic inches... more cubic inches! |
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Automodello
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2011 : 13:05:35
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Does anyone have contact information for ATC?
Jim Cowen
Automodello | Diecasm
www.automodello.com
www.diecasm.com
847.274.9645 |
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ATC Models
