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F1-Wolfgang
Germany
1884 Posts |
 Posted - 11/15/2010 : 01:15:49
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Congratulation from Heppenheim, to Sebastian Vettel the coolest World Champion!
Sebastian Vettel snatched the drivers' title from the grasp of his rivals after a brilliant drive in the Abu Dhabi GP, ended with glory for Red Bull.
wolfgang
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olauz
28 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 03:32:14
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Also my congratulations for Sebastian! Really good that not only Seb won but also justice and fairness won, and not the "team order" guy that even went on to show very unsportsmanlike behavior after the chequered flag. Also congrats for Red Bull for team championship, that team really deserved it.
Wolfgang, are you now starting to collect Vettel's race cars in 1/43?
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F1-Wolfgang
Germany
1884 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 05:48:23
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Olauz,
Since there are no Red Bull handmade models available from BBR or Tameo I’m not interested.
If Tameo produce some Red Bull kits, then I will built me a few!
I know the market will be fluted soon, with Mattel, Minichamps or other brands.
But I only collect Handmade models!
wolfgang
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ferrari4evr1
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 10:07:25
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Congrats to Vettel!!!!
He earned it. I thought it was touching when he started to cry inside his helmet (when he just found out that he was the new World Champion)... Very touching....
I love Ferrari and really wanted them to atleast walk away with the WDC this year but, they have a lot of work to do. Hopefully, the 2011 season will see improvements in their car's performance and reliability..... 2010 was a very exciting year!
Can't wait for F1 to come to the USA again! I will be there for sure!
2012 - Austin, Texas!!! Whoo Hoo!!!
James |
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ramapao69
Italy
512 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 10:31:06
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As a Ferrari fan ihave to make my congratulations to Vettel, he has deserved this title more than any other driver.
But it also has been a great gift from Ferrari's team and their crazy idea to stop Alonso while he was 4th , in a circuit where overtaking is impossible....otherwise today we would have had another world champion.....
The red Team this year has made many mistakes in the choice of race strategy....i'm very disappointed with Domenicali and Fernando's engineer Stella....they have thrown away a title already won!!!
Hope to have back Ross Brawn or Briatore as soon as possible..... |
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ferrari4evr1
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 10:56:39
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quote:
Originally posted by ramapao69
As a Ferrari fan ihave to make my congratulations to Vettel, he has deserved this title more than any other driver.
But it also has been a great gift from Ferrari's team and their crazy idea to stop Alonso while he was 4th , in a circuit where overtaking is impossible....otherwise today we would have had another world champion.....
The red Team this year has made many mistakes in the choice of race strategy....i'm very disappointed with Domenicali and Fernando's engineer Stella....they have thrown away a title already won!!!
Hope to have back Ross Brawn or Briatore as soon as possible.....
I agree Paolo. About throwing it away. There were some controversial moves by Ferrari this year. I get the team orders and trying to get their driver with the best opportunity to win the WDC, ahead of the other teammate, but, there are proper ways of doing this. Telling one teamamte that the other is faster than you, just so you can slow down to let him pass, is not good at all!! I did not like this. Plus, it brings down moral for the teammate. Making him think that he is not "GOOD" enough to be a contender... There are other methods to use to achieve goals as a team... Saying, "Alonso is faster than you," is not one of them.....
Just my 2 cents
James |
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250GTE
Netherlands
295 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 12:48:38
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But what other ways are there? The whole rule is completely insane.
It says:
Any teamorder that interferes with the raceresult, is prohibited.
That is weird, no? Imagine this. In the same race, Renault ordered Petrov to shift up earlier in order to preserve his engine. That is a teamorder, no? Is this teamorder aimed at interfering with the raceresult? Of course it is. Any order is given to reach the best possible result. This order was given to make sure Petrov would finish at all. Of course, no one in the right mind will argue that Renault cheated in this case, but yet they did exactly what the rule forbids.
Now, the team develop the cars and enter the races. The drivers are mere employees. To me it is nothing short of natural that teams decide where there interests lie and that the drivers follow suit if needed. Apparently, people don't mind IF it is done in a less than obvious manner. That is strange, since this means people want to be fooled. They say that racing is a show and that the show will be spoiled by obvious teamorders. I disagree. Racing is racing. If the race happens to be boring, or lead to a result you didn't want, than too bad. If you want any guarantee to see a show, go buy tickets for the theatre. But don't blame a team for playing tactics over their drivers. That is or should be all part of the game. |
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olauz
28 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 13:53:16
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250GTE, are you really serious about accusing Renault of team order just by telling Petrov to preserve his engine? Then you might be also accusing all the teams that warn their drivers of any possible failures or malfunctions of their cars to be that. Or then even that a team is saying to their driver to pit for tyre change is a team order in that sense and it is prohibited, just because it might interfere the results! That is totally crap and not what the rules say or mean. Of course you can bent and twist it but the rule is meant to prevent switching the positions of two contenders ordered someone other than the driver himself. And Petrov was fighting against Alonso fair and square - he fought for his position and possibly of his place on the grid for next season. Mr Alonso is no different than the other 23 drivers in this jurisdiction and has no such privileges that he should be given the way just by that by other teams, even if he was the #1 at Ferrari. And Ferrari is just one of the teams, only with richer history in the sport, but the same rules still applies to them as for the other teams.
Seems that Ferrari is not just a team for some folks, it's becoming a religion, and for some in a bad sense. That's why I have been more supporting for the British teams that have been typically more fair between their drivers in the fight for the WDC, and this year the (Austrian) Red Bull Racing as they kept it that way till the end, even if they were to loose the WDC. A big hat off for that. ...just what if they had ordered Vettel to let Webber pass in Brazil... |
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ramapao69
Italy
512 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 14:08:12
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I do not question the team orders....but agree with F4EVR that it should be done in another way.....i only note the total failure of the team in managing races over the last three years, they have lost the title to Massa in 2008, in 2009 they made wrong everything that could go wrong....the car first of all.....and now in 2010 they have lost a title already won as if they were a team of amateurs!!!
Me and many other Italian fans don't understand why Montezemolo do not dismiss them all!!
I am not talkin about mechanics...but Domenicali-Colajanni and the race engineers have to change work and go back to grow potatoes!!! We all really fed up with them!!!!GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! |
Edited by - ramapao69 on 11/15/2010 14:10:10 |
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ferrari4evr1
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 14:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by ramapao69
I do not question the team orders....but agree with F4EVR that it should be done in another way.....i only note the total failure of the team in managing races over the last three years, they have lost the title to Massa in 2008, in 2009 they made wrong everything that could go wrong....the car first of all.....and now in 2010 they have lost a title already won as if they were a team of amateurs!!!
Me and many other Italian fans don't understand why Montezemolo do not dismiss them all!!
I am not talkin about mechanics...but Domenicali-Colajanni and the race engineers have to change work and go back to grow potatoes!!! We all really fed up with them!!!!GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
I completely agree with you Paolo. They are not making good decisions and they also need to work on the car's performance and reliability... It isn't only the driver that wins races. Ferrari proved this, this year... Their results in the WCC was sad as well as the WDC... They need to fix many things. The car is one of them. As well as management...
It's like a game of Chess. If one method\strategy of using your pieces\people (ponds, bishops, knights\engineers,designers,managers) doesn't work, then, a new method\strategy of using your pieces\people needs to be put in place. Otherwise, checkmate (Ferrari loses). Like this year....
James |
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250GTE
Netherlands
295 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 15:18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by olauz
250GTE, are you really serious about accusing Renault of team order just by telling Petrov to preserve his engine?
That is not what I am saying, that is what article 19.1 of the FIA Formula 1 sporting code dictates.
If you apply this rule as it is written, than yes, Renault ordering Petrov to preserve his engine IN ORDER to maximize his finish, is a forbidden teamorder.
I am only trying to point out that the rule, as it is written, is ridiculous and unenforcable.
quote:
Then you might be also accusing all the teams that warn their drivers of any possible failures or malfunctions of their cars to be that. Or then even that a team is saying to their driver to pit for tyre change is a team order in that sense and it is prohibited, just because it might interfere the results! That is totally crap
Of course that is 'totally crap' but that is what is written in the rule. So the rule is 'totally crap' and clearly a product of uneducated souls.
quote:
Of course you can bent and twist it but the rule is meant to prevent switching the positions of two contenders ordered someone other than the driver himself.
That's the whole point. The rule doesn't have to be bent or twist in any way to have it apply on such everyday orders as preserving ones engine. How could the FIA not have seen that the rule, as it is written, has a scope which is way too big?
quote:
And Petrov was fighting against Alonso fair and square - he fought for his position and possibly of his place on the grid for next season. Mr Alonso is no different than the other 23 drivers in this jurisdiction and has no such privileges that he should be given the way just by that by other teams, even if he was the #1 at Ferrari. And Ferrari is just one of the teams, only with richer history in the sport, but the same rules still applies to them as for the other teams.
I didn't comment on the final race. I just pointed out that the rule is idiotic, to say the least.
quote:
Seems that Ferrari is not just a team for some folks, it's becoming a religion, and for some in a bad sense. That's why I have been more supporting for the British teams that have been typically more fair between their drivers in the fight for the WDC, and this year the (Austrian) Red Bull Racing as they kept it that way till the end, even if they were to loose the WDC. A big hat off for that. ...just what if they had ordered Vettel to let Webber pass in Brazil...
Totally disagree. You can not blame a team for wanting to get the best result in return for their investment. RedBull played a dangerous game. If Ferrari hadn't make a mistake in strategy, Alonso would have finished 4th. Easily. RedBull would then have lost a worldchampionship which they would have won if they pulled together behind Mark Webber. Whole different game then. In more ways than one, teamorders make sense |
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250GTE
Netherlands
295 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 15:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by ferrari4evr1
completely agree with you Paolo. They are not making good decisions and they also need to work on the car's performance and reliability... It isn't only the driver that wins races. Ferrari proved this, this year... Their results in the WCC was sad as well as the WDC... They need to fix many things. The car is one of them. As well as management...
It's like a game of Chess. If one method\strategy of using your pieces\people (ponds, bishops, knights\engineers,designers,managers) doesn't work, then, a new method\strategy of using your pieces\people needs to be put in place. Otherwise, checkmate (Ferrari loses). Like this year....
James
I disagree. The F10 (or whatever it is called) proved to be a good, reliable car. Easy on the tires and, in the hands of Alonso, plenty quick in qualifying. Sure, it couldn't beat the RedBulls (which were clearly ahead of the pack), but it could match at times, which is for Alonso enough to get ahead.
This was a good season in which things went good en things went bad, is goes for every other team. And besides, most things that were bad, need to go chalked up either Alonso's tally (false start in China, crashing in Monaco and Spa, false overtaking of Kubica in Silverstone, getting himself penalized) or were just simple bad luck (safety car in Valencia and in a sense also in Abu Dhabi). |
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ferrari4evr1
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 17:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by 250GTE
I disagree. The F10 (or whatever it is called) proved to be a good, reliable car. Easy on the tires and, in the hands of Alonso, plenty quick in qualifying. Sure, it couldn't beat the RedBulls (which were clearly ahead of the pack), but it could match at times, which is for Alonso enough to get ahead.
This was a good season in which things went good en things went bad, is goes for every other team. And besides, most things that were bad, need to go chalked up either Alonso's tally (false start in China, crashing in Monaco and Spa, false overtaking of Kubica in Silverstone, getting himself penalized) or were just simple bad luck (safety car in Valencia and in a sense also in Abu Dhabi).
I see your point 250GTE but, if a car doesn't perform as good as the rest of the pack then, there is only so much a good driver can do with it. Take Michael Schumacher for example. He is arguably one of the best race car drivers that ever existed. 7 time world champ etc etc.... But, this year he barely even offered much competition to the 3 front runners this season.. If anything, he got in the way (Rubens B. -almost into the wall incident)... Nonethelss, my point being, you can have the best driver in the world behind the wheel of a F1 car but, if it does not perform well or is unreliable, then, you got nothing (no results)... Hence, MS this year.
Management is also a crucial part of this whole equation. Without good management and strategies, then, its just another practice session.
You have a point about the "no team orders" rule, but, it can easily be argued both ways. Some people can argue that it would be considered "race fixing" and why watch a sport that's "Fixed?" While others will argue that it is a part of the Team's strategy to try and get the maximum results possible and benefit the team's chances to win either the WDC or WCC or both...
Anyway, i think it should make an exciting 2011 season now that Pirelli is in the mix. Is there another tire maker that signed up along with Pirelli? I havent read much about other potential tire makers to compete with Pirelli next season... Maybe Pirelli is solo???
James |
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ferrari4evr1
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 19:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by 250GTE
quote:
Originally posted by ferrari4evr1
completely agree with you Paolo. They are not making good decisions and they also need to work on the car's performance and reliability... It isn't only the driver that wins races. Ferrari proved this, this year... Their results in the WCC was sad as well as the WDC... They need to fix many things. The car is one of them. As well as management...
It's like a game of Chess. If one method\strategy of using your pieces\people (ponds, bishops, knights\engineers,designers,managers) doesn't work, then, a new method\strategy of using your pieces\people needs to be put in place. Otherwise, checkmate (Ferrari loses). Like this year....
James
I disagree. The F10 (or whatever it is called) proved to be a good, reliable car. Easy on the tires and, in the hands of Alonso, plenty quick in qualifying. Sure, it couldn't beat the RedBulls (which were clearly ahead of the pack), but it could match at times, which is for Alonso enough to get ahead.
This was a good season in which things went good en things went bad, is goes for every other team. And besides, most things that were bad, need to go chalked up either Alonso's tally (false start in China, crashing in Monaco and Spa, false overtaking of Kubica in Silverstone, getting himself penalized) or were just simple bad luck (safety car in Valencia and in a sense also in Abu Dhabi).
Here is what i mean regarding chess pieces and strategy..
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/247753/dejected-ferrari-we-made-the-wrong-decisions/
It pretty much all has to come together. Team, management, car, drivers, engineers etc...
I disagree that the car was competitive this year. It was a little bit but a little bit doesn't count in this game...
Nonetheless, like i mentioned before, 2011 will bring a new season of fun for all of us...
James |
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lee
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2010 : 15:30:05
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Seb vettel was the best driver in the best car
But what Ferrari did to Alonso was dum ass , stupid .
Whio would pit so early and stick alonso in traffic
Why , Why ,Why Why
But it was funny the President of Italy asked Luca to step down |
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Sebastian Vettel
